Forums / Bulletin Board / Should you breed without showing first?

[news] Injured dog's selflessness draws tears
Posted by bmoremastini on 22 Dec : 08:10
what an amazing story! thanks for shari [more ...]

[news] Gene Causes Canine Compulsive Disorder in Suspectable Dog Breeds
Posted by maximus on 21 Apr : 14:17
this is a test comment for Jessica

[links_page] Molosser Dogs
Posted by maximus on 20 Jan : 16:12
I just had to put a comment on this one. [more ...]

[news] Unwanted Canine Guests: Internal Parasites
Posted by basaltcanyon on 31 May : 13:10
Not sure why the link doesn't work but c [more ...]

Neo Owners :: Forums :: General :: Bulletin Board		<< Previous thread \| Next thread >>
Should you breed without showing first?


Moderators: maximus, jessica, All about Eva, Igmuska

Author

Post

All about Eva

Thu Jan 08 2009, 10:35PM

Registered Member #134

Joined: Wed Nov 26 2008, 11:04PM
Location: missouri
Posts: 242
Thanked 7 time in 7 post

What defines a good breeder? Can you call yourself a good breeder without showing your dog? This being said, ultimately isn't that what showing is about? The best specimans being judged for the right to be called champion. In the end people are going to look at your dogs pedigree and see CH. So are people that breed with champion lines and no points on their own bitch really good breeders? how can any person sell a show/breed quality pup without showing themselves? That makes no sense. Are they selling the show/ breed quality on their dogs champion lines? I know that there is alot more to breeding than showing, but isn't that what it ultimately comes down to.

megladon

Fri Jan 09 2009, 04:28AM

Registered Member #93

Joined: Tue Sep 09 2008, 09:52PM
Location: mackay queensland
Posts: 567
Thanked 16 time in 16 post

Many good breeders do not show their dogs but still breed top show dogs.
The pups which are shown show the breeder whether what he/she is doing is correct or not.
Yes I agree you cant state show or pet unless you have shown both parents but there are no garantees when you breed that any of that litter will go on to win shows.
And wins shows depends on turn out and number of dogs shown and area too many factors to consider before condemning a breeder for not showing.
I breed but do not ashow because there are no neapolitan mastiffs here in my area close by.
And in my town alone the Husky wins most shows because its the most popular dog in this town.
Many Italian breeders of old never showed a pup but their lines are in some of the winners now in Italy.
Show quality or pet when selling pups is down to your own judgement of the litter and how you think they will turn out going by looks and build alone at 8 weeks of age.
Pretty hard even for the most enthusiastic show person let alone a breeder.

1 User said Thank to megladon for this Post :
maximus (09 Jan : 09:00)

jessica

Fri Jan 09 2009, 08:33AM

Registered Member #9

Joined: Fri Jun 20 2008, 02:11PM
Location: Oakland County
Posts: 1581
Thanked 57 time in 55 post

Well.....I could rant about this subject all day! =O)
ALOT of the dogs that are shown shouldn't be even IN the ring let alone bred! Now everyone feels different and I understand that YES there is also great dogs that are shown as well. BUT just because its been in the ring doesn't make it a good dog. When one makes the decision to breed an animal I think breeding for pure looks is the worst choice anyone can make! Balance has to be done when breeding- Health, Function, Temperment then Looks. These dogs were made with a original purpose in mind...and in my book the dog should preform before the thought of being bred to make sure that it is worth the food its fed.

All about Eva

Fri Jan 09 2009, 09:13AM

Registered Member #134

Joined: Wed Nov 26 2008, 11:04PM
Location: missouri
Posts: 242
Thanked 7 time in 7 post

I did think of something later one. I can not rule out people that work there dogs either. How can a breeder judge their dogs on, say show quality or say work quality when a pup if they have no experience in either. This rant has me going from a different forum, I just carried it over. This being said, how can you mentor someone you sold a pup to about showing their pup, or working their pup. Say I buy a pup from a breeder with no experiencein show or working, who does all the appropriate testing, great temperment, saw the dam and sire (ch blood lines), pups look great, the breeder says it has breed or show potential I get one. I get home and decide, it says show potential lets give it a shot. I have no person to talk to about this or help me with this because my breeder has no experience I am basically on my own!? Do I go to the trouble of handleing classes and go to a show and risk being laughed at and looked at like, why would you even attempt. This seemed like a great question for the neo community considering it is so small and it could very well happen. I toyed with showing before I got Eva and I made sure I went to a breeder that had experience in showing so they could mentor me as needed. But that being said, the above situation could happen. Yes I think you can be a good breeder, if you temperment test, health test, and all the other stuff, but I have not been convinced that you can advertise your pup as show quality or work quality. Yes I think you can advertise CH line in pedigree, great working lines in pedigree, but are you not banking on others success. Like i said I have no experience in show ring/ working dogs but it seems like a very fair question.

Neolady

Fri Jan 09 2009, 09:41AM

Registered Member #12

Joined: Sat Jun 21 2008, 07:21PM
Location: Neoland
Posts: 54
Thanked 2 time in 2 post

I think it is a very fair question indeed. I think it depends on the breeder as well as the dogs in question. It burns me up when I see ad's where both parents are not even to the standard of the Neapolitan Mastiff. But they are selling their pups as show quailty,when if both parents were shown by a experienced judge they would be DQ'ed.On the other hand I have seen Champians that I would not breed if my life depended on it.I have seen ad's " we are not show people " but they are show quailty pups. They may have 1 show picture on their site from someone that bought a dog from them & won a show , but forgot to add it was the only dog there and that was the only time the judge seen a Neapolitan in person. Do your homework ,trust your gut. If something doesn't seem right it proably isn't.I will say that sometimes a bitch hates to be shown ,and is protective of its owner and for that reason has not been shown. But is a wonderful example of the breed. I have seen that as well. Do your homework ,trust your gut . When you talk to the breeder if this breeder is bashing a bunch of other breeders that is a red herring. They proably don't want to talk about the elephant in the room either .Just do your homework and trust your gut .

BluHouse

Fri Jan 09 2009, 10:06AM

Guest

Thanked time in post

If I were to buy a golden or a lab I would want a Ch with hunting titles and all OFA certificates and some other health testing too but the breeding pool on those breeds is hundreds and thousands, in the Neo we just don't have that luxury. Basic good health (with some required testing), reasonable temperament and reasonable type with shrewd breeding practices is a good starting place for now.

Once someone gets a better idea of the breed you can see quality in dogs that are not necessarily champions. It took me a couple of years before I grasped a rudimentary idea of which lines did what and most of it came from mentorship. I just wish more breeders were forthright about health and temperament so I could apply more science to my breedings (I'm not going to hold my breath on that one

.) But I know why most don't test, which is why I am personally working on some of that health stuff.

But with breeding even a dog that is not stellar in all of the areas may produce quality pups (and conversely ones that get all the gold stars can produce zilch.) Breeding dogs is an art not a science and like all good art you have to develop an eye for conformation and that just takes time and good guidance. Doing some reading on canine genetics and heritable diseases will help too.

Sara Beth, I would say next time find a breeder that is going to help mentor you, IMHO that is part of the cost of the puppy.

Robin

All about Eva

Fri Jan 09 2009, 10:25AM

Registered Member #134

Joined: Wed Nov 26 2008, 11:04PM
Location: missouri
Posts: 242
Thanked 7 time in 7 post

Just to be fair to my breeder, she mentors me and does a great job of it. Thats why I chose her. She is the only one that would. The question posted stemmed from and add i saw about show quality pups, but doing more research found that the breeder had no experience in the show ring. i could not figure out how they could advertise this without any experience in showing.

THIS IS NOT MY BREEDER, my breeder is awesome and has mentored me wonderfully. Yes I have a show quality pup, from a breeder that has shown for many years. I did my research and spoke with many breeders, some of them flat out stated they would not sell me a show quality pup since I have never shown before and still was not sure if I wanted to. I can understand and respect that, they were honest and wanted a show home and wanted one with experience. They wanted to make sure they gave there pups the best homes for their quality. Good for them that is a good breeder. Yes I am inexperienced with the breed but everyone was once and Evas breeder realized that and has been mentoring me since.

maximus

Fri Jan 09 2009, 02:17PM

Site Administrator

Registered Member #2

Joined: Tue Nov 13 2007, 11:14PM
Location: Suffolk, Virginia
Posts: 153
Thanked 5 time in 5 post

I think too many buyers grant too much importance to the breeders. The bottom line is this. When someone buys a piece of property (dog) it is theirs to do what they want. Once the buyer takes custody of their pup and hands over the cash - anything else that occurs between buyer and breeder is purely out of emotional weakness and the need to feel a sense of belonging to a common entity.

Many of us attach way too much importance to a breeder and not enough importance to actually PICKING a puppy. Buyers must get to know the breed and speak to different breeders then make their decision based on the DOG and nothing else.

All too often we tend to think that the breeder actually produced something - when all the (re)production is done by the dogs.

BluHouse

Fri Jan 09 2009, 03:01PM

Guest

Thanked time in post

Sara Beth, I meant no offense to your breeder etc. (Not even sure who they are.)

Of course you don't pick a puppy <just> to be associated with the breeder but quite frankly good breeders produce better dogs because the are smarted about the whole process. Breeders that show may have a better idea of different conformation types and the lines to use to produce the type of dog they want. (notice I said may) Same goes for health stuff, since we don't have a ton of OFA cleared dogs you can't just breed two cleared dogs together and expect healthy ones, you have to be smarter about the breedings and which combos would be good.

The AKC conformation ring isn't the end all for most breeders, since the italian standard does differ a bit then the US one. But really you're right Sara Beth- only healthy dogs (no skin infections, lameness, etc.) ones of reasonable conformation (reasonable wrinkle and bone) and temperament (i.e. not attacking the judge) can become champions and thus are worthy to continue the breed. But of course it's not that easy. Some dogs are Dq'd from health issues that are not hereditary, some have minor conformation flaws but still of quality and many great Neos have temperaments a little too sharp for most rings.

Robin


Jump: Back to top User Colour Key:

Random Pics

Latest Comments

Forums

Profiles

Search Neo Owners

Welcome

Links Menu