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Neo Owners :: Forums :: Health and Nutrition :: Longevity		<< Previous thread \| Next thread >>
Should you.....Or Could you?


Moderators: maximus, jessica, All about Eva, Igmuska

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jessica

Mon Nov 03 2008, 03:11PM

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A point was brought up to me earlier that pricked my curiosity, so I thought I would share. Please give your opinions and comments and try not to get upset (hehehe like I did!).

-Culling for population control is common in wildlife management-

To use culling as a breeder is to remove any and all negatives in ones litter. As in death! (Or as a better idea use of sterilization so said dog can not be bred in another person's breeding agenda.)
I spoke with a person earlier who was sickened by cherry eye and said that the breeder should be ashamed by knowingly breeding dogs with cherry eye.
After hearing this I started asking people's opinion regarding this so next I talked to someone else who breeds in another country, in which his Neo's live a working dogs life and need to preform to live on his property. He has had three dogs with cherry eye and all three were culled. Not just from the cherry eye but all three dogs also had short muzzles and breathing was also hindered.
After hearing this I was fit to be tied........I have had more then one dog with this and geez its such a simple procedure...... But After tossing this back and Fourth (thanks Gary) it hit me.....

Has this always been a problem with our breed?
Like in the 40's when the faces were more tight lipped
Are we making it worse because of the fact we want the excess of skin on the face?
By choosing to breed two dogs purely because of aesthetics
Using dogs that have had cherry eye in breeding program?
I wonder how many have had these removed

If dogs were Chosen for Health first, temperament, (towards its breed standard)....then last for looks...Would we have a better Neo? A more Healthy breed in general?

Or just one ugly dog?

[ Edited Mon Nov 03 2008, 03:53PM ]

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doc (04 Nov : 09:13)

maximus

Tue Nov 04 2008, 07:36AM

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Wow, seems that no one wants to jump on this topic so I will give my little thoughts on it.

Part of the problems with many breeds today is the tendency by breeders to ensure that even the weakest pups are cared for and retain a position in the gene pool. In many cases the first touch a newly whelped puppy receives is from the breeder with a towel cleaning it and caring for it. That job is best left to the bitch. By human interference in the breeding and whelping process we attach too much importance to our abilities to keep the weak and sickly pups alive. Those weak pups are then placed in the breed population sometimes for exorbitant prices and go on to produce offspring.

Culling - may seem like a brutal act to many but there is the natural and selective types. Natural is where the damn will eat a weak pup or refuse to feed it or if it is too weak to get to a nipple to nurse it will die. Selective is when the breeder identifies pups with unwanted traits and remove them from the litter by their chosen methods. Breeders who interfere with the natural process must be prepared to exercise other selective pressures to ensure that they are getting the traits they desire in their breed of choice. Neutering/spaying is indeed a form of culling as it ensures that the dogs no longer contribute to the gene pool.

If you consider the expense of buying and raising a breeding pair, the high mortality rate, the short life span, the inability (in some cases) to breed naturally and if bred to sustain the life of the pups it is easy to see why breeders will do their best to save every pup that draws breath. Who can blame them?

Yes, I have heard the mantra that we are not in it for the money, etc. but lets face it, it does help. When the dogs with known weaknesses are removed from breeding, the breed will be on the way to a revitalization that will ensure its longevity and proliferation. When we make excuses and accept too many weaknesses as being a part of a breed the breed becomes weaker and suffers.

We all have our own likes and dislikes about any breed but one thing we should all work for is the health and functionality of our breed of choice. To achieve this goal we may have to rethink our methods and change some paradigms. If we are emotionally and financially involved in something it is not easy to see faults or to change directions. At some point we must seek and be open to other opinions in order to avoid groupthink.

Generally speaking the Neapolitan Mastiff has some breeders who are working hard to infuse some health and function in the breed. Keep up the great and difficult work.

[ Edited Tue Nov 04 2008, 07:39AM ]

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doc (04 Nov : 09:13)

megladon

Tue Nov 04 2008, 07:39AM

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That is a very hard question and looking at many pictures of recent neapolitans it is hard to decide whether to cull over cherry eye alone.
Myself I would not consider culling puppies if the litter only had cherry eye which most of the time the pups are sold before the cherry eye shows but if I found that a litter I bred had a more serious problem after breeding them I would not breed that pair again and would desex and keep as pets. It is also hard to know whether a pup will have cherry eye if both parents never did.
Looks like I answered at the same time as Gary. I also agree to leave the mother to clean the pups when giving birth and try to allow a natural birth as much as possible.
My female really did an amazing job and I think our own fears stop us allowing the dog to do what is natural.
As for the question of could I cull if there was a serious enough reason to do so....yes I would because I think of the big picture and dont want to breed dogs just to breed dogs but to improve and try to get the best possible pups from my breeding.
In Australia you normally give a contract and if any heredity defects are found you have to replace or give the money back to the buyer if they wish to return the dog.
And if they dont want to return the dog then you have to live with the guilt of causing those people heartache and very costly bills even if your a decent person and allow them to keep it and give the money back.
That is why most health test their dogs as much as possible to try to avoid this in the first place.

[ Edited Tue Nov 04 2008, 08:02AM ]

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vampyresangel (04 Nov : 19:57)

doc

Tue Nov 04 2008, 09:01AM

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Gary I would have to agree with you about what you have posted about Culling. It is not brutal it is the natural selection of life. Too many times a weak pup is taken care for and sold at the same price as show/breeding prospect. This is not a positive action due to the fact that the weak pup will have offspring, and will not contribute a positive out come to the breed. Just like natural selection the pup should have died. If we tend to our whelping bitch and do all the work we will have problems down the road. The female will expect more human involvement in the whelping of a littler; however when is it necessary for humans to interfere with a litter?

As for the culling neutering/spaying is a good tool to exercise with the runt of the littler or a couple of pups that don’t contribute to the breed. My questions is should we condone the fact that the mother is not feeding the pup, and in turn will die? What seems to make the most sense?

Sirus

Thu Nov 06 2008, 07:48AM

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I am not a breeder...So I guess my opinion would be one of a "pet" home (although we are certainly not your average pet home

).

I can not say I am comfortable with culling...But I certainly would not promote the breeding of a dog that did not have the desired traits. If the pup is healthy...Why not keep it? Although they may not be perfect, they still can be some of the greatest dogs.

Question on the "runt" of the litter...Why cull or desex the runt? I understand they are smaller at birth, but if size is the only issue...If they grow to be the same as the rest (or in my shepherds case the biggest), do they still not have the same to contribute?

megladon

Thu Nov 06 2008, 08:35AM

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Whether you buy a pet or show quality pup it should still be healthy and up to the breed standard irrelevant of whether you to choose to show or not.
Buyers should not be given a pup with genetic faults just because it is not for show.
All breeders should strive for the betterment of the breed no matter who buys from them.

jessica

Thu Nov 06 2008, 08:55AM

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Good point about the runt Kate.....I have seen runts grow to be above any size of the litter and parents as well. Generally I don't think that is as much important as allowing the mother to cull as much as the humans to choose. BUT I do agree if its pet quality they should be fixed and never bred.

doc

Thu Nov 06 2008, 09:10AM

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I agree it should be healthy no matter who you sell it to. If the dog has a kinked tail, incorrect bite, and I can go on forever then it should be sold as pet! If the dog is unhealthy sold as a pet/show prospect this is wrong. As breeders we all should strive in producing health, functional pups.

Kate,
True if the pup is healthy but doesn’t have the desired traits it becomes pet quality and should be sold as that.

jessica

Thu Nov 06 2008, 10:30AM

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Don't forget FIXED!!!!
That is ONE huge problem people who may not be as caring or just plan don't know and think that the "pet" quality should be bred...and then the same bad traits just get passed to the next line.

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doc (06 Nov : 10:47)

doc

Thu Nov 06 2008, 10:47AM

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Fixed fixed fixed. Thanks Jess for the post!

BluHouse

Thu Nov 06 2008, 11:11AM

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I deal with culling all the time with production animals. Most of the great ideas in small animal breeding have been known for a long time with the cattle, horse and sheep people. Is culling common with dogs and cats, not really, but every breeder should be prepared to cull. If a puppy has a congenital defect such as a cleft palate, obvious deformities or organ abnormalities (liver shunts, heart defects etc) the puppy IMHO should be euthanized asap and not sold as a pet, where the puppy itself will suffer and a family will fall in love with them and deal with the emotional and financial burden that is sure to come. Does this happen, sure, but as responsible breeders our goal should be minimizing this.

Next are the obvious DQs, kinked tails, poor bites etc. these pups should be castrated and placed in pet homes. After that come the dogs with less obvious negatives, as these can get better (or worse) as the pup ages. This is the tricky bit that will no doubt create future surprises, but that is part of the fun of breeding!

But prior to every breeding, the health, temperament, inbreeding coefficient and conformation of each dog should be evaluated and a prospective stud/dam should be selected to best complement ALL of those conditions (in that order for me). Just putting a male and a female together because they are convenient is not the way to improve the breed. By testing more and making the results known breeders can better select from healthy typey Neos to improve the breed.

Current research (some ongoing, some upcoming) will help determine (1) exactly which health conditions are common in the breed (2) if they are linked to perhaps desirable traits and (3) just how heritable they are.

Cheers, Robin

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jessica (06 Nov : 11:17)

doc

Thu Nov 06 2008, 12:58PM

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BluHouse wrote ...

I deal with culling all the time with production animals. Most of the great ideas in small animal breeding have been known for a long time with the cattle, horse and sheep people. Is culling common with dogs and cats, not really, but every breeder should be prepared to cull. If a puppy has a congenital defect such as a cleft palate, obvious deformities or organ abnormalities (liver shunts, heart defects etc) the puppy IMHO should be euthanized asap and not sold as a pet, where the puppy itself will suffer and a family will fall in love with them and deal with the emotional and financial burden that is sure to come. Does this happen, sure, but as responsible breeders our goal should be minimizing this.

Next are the obvious DQs, kinked tails, poor bites etc. these pups should be castrated and placed in pet homes. After that come the dogs with less obvious negatives, as these can get better (or worse) as the pup ages. This is the tricky bit that will no doubt create future surprises, but that is part of the fun of breeding!

But prior to every breeding, the health, temperament, inbreeding coefficient and conformation of each dog should be evaluated and a prospective stud/dam should be selected to best complement ALL of those conditions (in that order for me). Just putting a male and a female together because they are convenient is not the way to improve the breed. By testing more and making the results known breeders can better select from healthy typey Neos to improve the breed.

Current research (some ongoing, some upcoming) will help determine (1) exactly which health conditions are common in the breed (2) if they are linked to perhaps desirable traits and (3) just how heritable they are.

Cheers, Robin

Well this is the first time and maybe the only time that i agree with you Robin. Very good post and I thank you for the post!


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